Canadian Open BBQ Event

[GoodSmokeBBQ]

Well Brian you could be right I don't know. The people that attend Barrie a few years back did not like the full plateing, they told me that themselves. They never did return either as far as I know

Consistency ? I have a lot of friends that compete in the south, American friends and many complain about judging not being consistent. I still read the BBQ Forum and there is still, always has been and always will be arguments about consistancy in judging

Another thing maybe you could help me with as far as KCBS judging goes, how is it possible not to have comparitive judging when you have six entries on one placemat at the same time ? How could anyone not compare product to product ? I say that is impossible even with certified judges.

The fact of the matter is merely the luck of the draw, you hope like hell your entry lands on a good table. It is the same everywhere whether it be in Texas or in NY or in Ontario. Now having said that first and formost you have to be a good cook then its a flip of the coin in my opinion.

Again these are only my opinions. As you have pointed out you also have opinions

Reg

There are many variables in something as subjective a judging. What KCBS provides a standard to judge from, which I feel is about as good as it can get to minimize the variability. I know what the reps are telling the judges at a KCBS comp. I have no idea what the head judge tells the judges in Canada (or any other non-sanctioned event), and I am sure it is different comp to comp.

[Hippieforever99]

This post is still living on eh Must be a good topic with lots of different opinions, so here is another. I have judged a fair number of BBQ comps here in Ontario over the years, and it has been fun and a great time to ask questions and meet teams who compete and make some new friends sometimes.
I have never comparison judged any Q that I have tried and never would. I just don't believe in it. I judge each Q on its own merits alone. At almost all of the comps the message given to the judges has been pretty much the same I am happy to say. Head judges have always talked about tenderness, smoke rings, presentation, how the meet should pull away from a proper cook rib, and my favourite Scotty J's three bite rule. I have always talked about how it would be nice sometime to have classes to certify judges to a Canadian judging stlye. And I believe that a fee should be charged for a class like this. All this will do I feel, is to let folks know which have never judged before some of the proper things to look for in proper cooked BBQ. It doesn't mean they will judge things the right way, but at least it will have tried to train some properly. Now you can take your KCBS, MIM, or whatever type of certified judging classes and it don't really mean a thing. Sure you get a title, a card, a certificate and some info on what to look for. But lets be honest here. At the end of the day it all comes down to how well you use the information you are given.
I can tell you now, that I always have to check myself so that I do not do comparison judging, and it is not easy sometimes. Sure it is good to have some guidelines to follow, otherwise it is pure chaos. It all comes down to proper cooked BBQ and personal taste. In an event where there are alot of judges there are going to be some with the same likes and dislikes. Some like dry rubs, others like sauce, some sweet, some hot. When it all comes down to it, no matter who has certified you, your personal taste will come into play along the way. It is only human nature. The thing you must do is to put that in the back of your mind and judge each entry on its own merits. It can be done, but you have to think about it always. Well thats my .25 Hippie

PS. There are two Head Judges that I personally felt did a super job with the judges. 1. was Ray Lampe, and 2. is Scotty J at Paris. Both I feel really know there stuff and are class acts, great with people, and no egos that need stroking.

[Adrienne]

Good points, Hippie.

[reg]

Makita, I would like to hear the answer to that question. When you get back could you let everyone know.

Brian, yes for sure every event will be some what different and in my eyes I have never seen a clear clean set of rules to go by. I think the best I have seen was when Fast Eddy started the American Barbecue Association. There were printed guidlines for the judges to go by during judging. To bad that Association never caught on

Hippy, you are right on the money in my book ! I have heard judges say that the BBQ they judged was not as good as their own lol. Maybe that could be true but again that would be comparative judging, not what they are there for

I have been involved in BBQ contests and also in other food related contests and they are all the same. Hope like hell your entry lands on the good tables

Thanks for all the input

Reg

[mikita21]

Here's how Memphis deals with Comparative Judging, which is what they do. All the usual qualifications exist, needing barbecue to meet the high standards of taste, texture, appearance, etc. They cite a 2- or 3-bite rule. The Q [u]must[/u] meet the same high standards we all hope for in any competition...good meat, well prepared by competent cooks to a fairly precise set of requirements.

But where Memphis-style departs is the admonition to the judges that " one of the samples you try will be the best one you have today. Not yesterday; not compared to Mom's; not compared to your favourite restaurant; not compared to the award-winning barbecue you produced for supper last night. Today, and today only, from the samples you are judging."

Judging starts with a 10, on the assumption that everyone cooking should be good enough to aim for 10 (perfect score). And "one of the samples you taste will be your 10 today". Lots of notes are made, but actual scores are not awarded to samples until you have tried all 6 (blind). All may be good; all could be great!! But the judge's job is to award one, and only one sample, their 10.

Hippie, I appreciate all the things you said about non-comparative judging, and that is the way of KCBS and, apparently, the still-to-be-truly-defined-Canadian. And if that is the way the Head Judge says I am to score, that is what I want to learn, because deliberately comparative judging is all I have been taught so far. And in both styles (Memphis & KCBS) I have been told of the balance between meat meeting all the criteria you mentioned, Hippie, plus that broadly interpreted opening for subjectivity.

This is going to be a great learning experience for me, especially as more of this kind of discussion rises to the top; I also champion your drive to produce a set of judges in Canada (what the hey, Ontario) who can apply a set of Canadian standards to a barbecue cooking contest.

Reg, the class is not till May 28th, but I am going to keep this on the front burner of my burned-out mind, and will initiate something after that date in here. Anyone taking classes anywhere should maybe be asking similar questions, cause I think Hippie's non-comparison judging is a greater skill than some of us may think; and if it is the rule, we'd better learn how.

By the way, can I look for any of you at Roc City, either in class Friday or at the pits on the weekend?

[the giggler]

Well Brian you could be right I don't know. The people that attend Barrie a few years back did not like the full plateing, they told me that themselves. They never did return either as far as I know

Consistency ? I have a lot of friends that compete in the south, American friends and many complain about judging not being consistent. I still read the BBQ Forum and there is still, always has been and always will be arguments about consistancy in judging

Another thing maybe you could help me with as far as KCBS judging goes, how is it possible not to have comparitive judging when you have six entries on one placemat at the same time ? How could anyone not compare product to product ? I say that is impossible even with certified judges.

The fact of the matter is merely the luck of the draw, you hope like hell your entry lands on a good table. It is the same everywhere whether it be in Texas or in NY or in Ontario. Now having said that first and formost you have to be a good cook then its a flip of the coin in my opinion.

Again these are only my opinions. As you have pointed out you also have opinions

Reg

Brian - you are not alone in your position.

Reg - indulge me in a scenario. I'm a US team going to Canada to win the Canadian Open, and yes, the Jack Entry is very important - right DivaQ? Anywho, I'm a team who is used to participating in a double blind 4 category KCBS or NEBS contest. I enter this event, knowing there is full plating and on site judging. IMO, you can "Wow" the on site judges, but if you can't win the blind boxes, you don't have a shot at the title. Full plating isn't something that scares me. What most concerns me is the potential for bias and having a fair, objective judging process.

For example, as a proud American, I like to fly the Stars and Stripes at my cooksite. (I also really respect, and appreciate teams from Canada who proudly does the same in the States). Can you say that the judges coming on site are going to give me a fair shake? Or will bias come in to play? and a set of rogue judges say - "This Yankee thinks he's going to take the Canadian Championship back to the US - we'll show him just like we did in Olympic Hockey." The food I'm plating for them may very well be the best they are going to have all day, that doesn't matter because they have already decided they are going to score me down as an American.

I've spoken to an established team from Michigan who said he would be reluctant to go back to The Open based on the ridicule he received as an American Team at the awards ceremony. It was probably done in jest and good spirit, but a couple years later it still doesn't sit well with that guy. If an organizer disrespected a Canadian team competing here, I would be REALLY PISSED. (I don't like it when organizers try to become entertainers or comediens at an awards ceremony - I say get on with it, we're all tired, and want to relax and have a beer with our friends).

Another aspect of this contest that keeps my money in my wallet, is the structure of rules, enforcement, judging, and judges. How do we know that the rules will be equally enforced on everyone? If the event can't find 180+ judges with $40, how will they seat judges? Warm bodies off the street? Celebrities? If they end up taking people off the street for "the feed", how will a new judge know what they are judging or how to judge? The whole thing is just too loose for my liking, especially considering what's at stake as far as money and the Jack Entry. And the full plating isn't even a factor.

We all know its expensive to compete at any level. Before spending $1, I have to know and trust that I've got the same shot at the title as any other team. Canadian Teams coming to the US to compete in KCBS contests, do so knowing full well that they are competing on a level playing field. Certainly you have to cook well, and yes, get "lucky" with the table, but everyone has the same chance to take GC. I think the straightforward fairness of KCBS rules, are what keeps bringing the talent from Canada to the US.

KCBS is very interested in going International. Canada could be the first to adopt that framework.

[Hippieforever99]

To The Giggler. I read your post and you have some very good points made .I think there was a little paranoia about not thinking that a team from the U.S.A. has to worry about getting a fair shake since they are American. Of all the years that I have judged up here I have never heard a judge or organizer,say anything even in jest about our American cousins. The only things that I have heard have been more along the lines of a Canadian team having to take it up a notch to be as good or better . You stated "For example, as a proud American, I like to fly the Stars and Stripes at my cooksite. I also really respect, and appreciate teams from Canada who proudly does the same in the States). Can you say that the judges coming on site are going to give me a fair shake? Or will bias come in to play? and a set of rogue judges say - "This Yankee thinks he's going to take the Canadian Championship back to the US - we'll show him just like we did in Olympic Hockey." I guess when it really comes down to it we Canadians could say the same about competing in the U.S., but we don't. I think we have to trust totally in the judging to be fair on either side of the border. Just because a judge has been certified doesn't mean that they have to be honest. If we were to think that way then judges should be worried about being poisoned by bad Q by some team that is out for revenge for a previous bad score given. Now as for hockey you don't have a leg to stand on there as it is our game.

As for how they are going to come up with the amount of judges they need for Toronto at 40.00 each I cannot really say. Being a judge myself I would not pay to judge at this comp when I am already taking time out of my life to travel to this event and pay out of pocket for Gas and whatever other expenses I would add up with in the end. I love to judge, meet good people, and spend time around people that have a passion for BBQ. Having to pay 40 over and above my expenses I am sorry to say is out of my financial reach in the economy of today.

Now as for Canadians adopting the KCBS framework,I would personally say why. Different States in the U.S. go by different rules I think, and that even varies from comp to comp what rules they want to use.I think it would be good for Canadians to find their own way on that one. Thats not saying that we would not borrow some points from different areas whether it be MIM, KCBS, NEBS, or The Worlds. There are some teams or people on this site that would relish the thought of KCBS rules being adopted here in Canada and that is their choice and they are intitled to it I think.

You should make the trip up here for one of our comps and really see what it is all about for yourself. There is Paris, Listowel, and a few others getting into the act. I know you would be treated right and have a great time making new friends and cookin Q. Not to mention how great our beer is up here as it is wayyy stronger than yours Hippie

[mikita21]

wow..........there's just a whole lot more meat on these bones than I bet most of us ever expected!!!! *G*

[Hippieforever99]

You got that one right Mikita Almost makes ya want to take up eating Headcheese with a side order of Sauerkraut don't it Hippie

[Earl]

Hi Guy's

Bustin Loose BBQ will be cooking at this event ,just too slow sending in the $. Reg, got your email sorry will reply tomorrow.

Earl

[the giggler]

I read your post and you have some very good points made .I think there was a little paranoia about not thinking that a team from the U.S.A. has to worry about getting a fair shake since they are American.

I wouldn't agree on the paranoia, or conspiracy theory. I'm most interested in having the same shot that everyone else does. Bias comes into play with the on-site judging. When a Canadian Team competes at a KCBS contest in the US, nobody at the judges table knows who's food is getting judged. That's the beauty of double blind. Everyone has the same chance, that's why its such a popular format. If I'm going to pony up the money and go, I have to trust that I have a fair shot, that's all.

I guess when it really comes down to it we Canadians could say the same about competing in the U.S., but we don't.

How could you? In the Northeast, its all double blind. A judge can't identify which team's entry they are judging?!?!

I think we have to trust totally in the judging to be fair on either side of the border. Just because a judge has been certified doesn't mean that they have to be honest. If we were to think that way then judges should be worried about being poisoned by bad Q by some team that is out for revenge for a previous bad score given.

That's funny. Like Jamie Geer did on Pitmasters, "They want heat, I'll burn em up!" No matter what format, certified or non-certified, KCBS or any double blind judging format is fair, as in everyone has the same chance. Agreed, its important to trust in any format.

Now as for hockey you don't have a leg to stand on there as it is our game.

Yeah - Hockey is your game, but I don't hear anyone complaining about the money being made in NHL in the US markets. And thank you for creating such an awesome game. Football, baseball, and basketball are a BORE in comparison. I've never been much of a professional sports fan, until I moved to Buffalo and discovered LIVE ICE HOCKEY. Tell you what, we'll trade the Bills for another NHL Team - even up.

As for how they are going to come up with the amount of judges they need for Toronto at 40.00 each I cannot really say. Being a judge myself I would not pay to judge at this comp when I am already taking time out of my life to travel to this event and pay out of pocket for Gas and whatever other expenses I would add up with in the end. I love to judge, meet good people, and spend time around people that have a passion for BBQ. Having to pay 40 over and above my expenses I am sorry to say is out of my financial reach in the economy of today.

As an organizer, I fully understand the investment of Judges. I wouldn't be too excited about a fee to judge either. At least a team has a chance to win some of their investment back. As a judge, sometimes all you have to show for your investment is a longer waisteband.

Now as for Canadians adopting the KCBS framework,I would personally say why? Different States in the U.S. go by different rules I think, and that even varies from comp to comp what rules they want to use.I think it would be good for Canadians to find their own way on that one. Thats not saying that we would not borrow some points from different areas whether it be MIM, KCBS, NEBS, or The Worlds. There are some teams or people on this site that would relish the thought of KCBS rules being adopted here in Canada and that is their choice and they are intitled to it I think.

That's because the KCBS format, or double blind non-comparison style format, is a fair one - each entry stands on its own merit, and is judged accordingly from an anonymous cook. I like the entries for the Canadian Open. I like the fact that you have to cook a whole chicken. I like the sides, and creativity involved in turn ins. Even if we had to do 6 blind boxes per category. I would trust it a whole lot more.

BTW - the Canadian Open has of the largest prize pools in the Region. Teams routinely travel long distances to KCBS contests for big prizes, and automatic Jack Entries. Stop and consider for a moment, how large of a contest the Canadian Open would be if more teams traveled from the US. IMO double blind non-comparison style judging would go a long way to building a full field.

You should make the trip up here for one of our comps and really see what it is all about for yourself. There is Paris, Listowel, and a few others getting into the act. I know you would be treated right and have a great time making new friends and cookin Q. Not to mention how great our beer is up here as it is wayyy stronger than yours Hippie

I am sure you're right. I'm still on the fence about The Open. We may say - hell with the speculation on bias and rules, and just head up for a good time. I certainly enjoy the company of my fellow Canadian Teams. Especially when we get set up close to one another. We tend to laugh a lot.

From a black helicopter, conspiracy theorist, paranoid Yank perspective, I'd feel a whole lot better about investing money in an entry fee, border crossing, and travel expenses, if the judging process is double blind. I am a real believer in the KCBS format, and I think that's why every year we see more Canadian Teams competing in the US - they trust the format.

[reg]

Morning giggler and thanks for your comments. It has been a few years since we have been involved in comps but I can say with certainty that I have never heard of anyone that I know of say anything negative about any American team or of any biased judging against American teams. I can in all honesty tell you that I/we have ran two events here in Niagara that were won by American teams and teams that we consider to be good people and good friends.

A competition is a competition and may the best team (that day) win whether from Canada, the US or Russia as far as I'm concerned

With my comment about the Jack some might find it offensive but it is not meant to be. I'm more interested on getting BBQ in Ontario back on track than thinking about the Jack. To some it is the most important thing but not for me.

Reg

[reg]

Is the Can Open not double blind ? If not that should be changed ASAP

Reg

[bbqD]

Hey Reg. I think Giggler is refering to the on site judging not being a blind box system. On site judging will always make teams nervous about geting a fair and equal shot at winning and I think that's a valid concern, not just for an Americain team, but any team. Is the judge influencd by the camp site, how many past awards the team has won, the size of their trailer or smokers, maybe the judge doesn't like fat blonde haired guys. Lots of things out of a cooks control that could influence a judge with onsite judging vs. a blind box.

Regardless, its a fun comp, and we plan to attend as well.

Hope all is well with you and everyone else out ot bbqland!

[the giggler]

Thanks Darrin for the support. And Reg and Hippie, thanks for your responses too.

I agree, the opportunity is ripe for reshaping BBQ in Canada. Not everyone agrees on the best format in the States either. There's no arguing that the vast majority of contests in the US, are Sanctioned by KCBS. Like I said before, KCBS would very much like to have an International presence in some form.

I LOVE the fact that Teams travel to the US. One of the two repeat teams at Boston Hills is Can't Stop Grillin', and I know Diva Q has us on the schedule this year. We hope the schedule allows The BBQ Effect and others to make the trip too. Personally, I'd rather spend less money and time traveling to places like Vermont and Maryland, but as it is right now, those contests are being run with a format and rule set that I'm comfortable with and trusting in.

All I'm saying is that currently, as it is now, the OBJECTIVITY of the onsite judging causes me to take pause. Like I said in a previous post, if you can't do well in the blind boxes, you don't have a shot. I'd feel the same about the bias and objectivity potential if I were headed to the deep south to compete in a similar format. There's a lot of money on the line in prizes, not to mention the ticket to the Jack. It also takes a lot of money to get there and participate.

We've been kicking this around as a Team. I'd be lying if I said that whole chickens weren't a part of our practice exercises.