The Muffin Tin incident on BBQ Pitmasters

[BigVEg]

I would say that I am new school bbq. Only in the fact that I am not an Old Timer (no offence meant) I use both old and new school methods of cooking-bbqing. I still have alot to learn. I`ve only done 1 amateur comp, and it was only ribs. I foiled them, and they turned out well in my opininon, the judges didn`t think so but that is another post.

Do I think foils and pans should be banned, no. But every pitmaster young and old should know how to handle there bbq in any situation. The debate may go on about pans and foils, but at the end of the day weither it be at a competition or in your back yard, we all love what we produce. No matter how it gets there!

[reg]

Morning guys, this is a good subject to discuss. Old school or new school means nothing to me as I try to keep up with all the newest cooking methods out there, even delve into some molecular gastronomy every now and then when I see a method that might work for a dish I have in mind. For years I have always preached that we have to move BBQ to higher levels and to be honest in the last few years there are a few of us that have done just that. When you think about it 10 years ago you never seen BBQ at a winery for instance. I'm not just talking about ribs and pulled pork here, I'm talking about lamb, fish and other things so foils and pans or anything else really don't bother me.

My only thought is that BBQ competitions IMHO should be in the purer forms of cooking BBQ. No steaming, no frying, no braising and definately no electrical contraptions that open and close your air vents while the head cook visits or is sleeping. I know a lot of people will say then why don't we cook in the ground like they did 300 years ago but do we have to go that far ? In todays style of BBQ competition a backyard cook takes a few lessons, buys some cool gadgetry and in a year of so they are BBQ superstars, is that what really makes a BBQ champion or a great BBQ cook, not in my opinion. It seems like no one really wants to take the time to learn about BBQ, why does this happen and how does that happen, oh NO SWEARING ALLOWED I left the meat on to long or not long enough. These are only a few of the thoughts I have about comp BBQ and I know many will disagree but thats fine because these are only my opinions which in the big picture mean FA

Reg

[expatbill]

There are several reasons why I no longer compete, one, is that every year, it became less and less about the food, and more and more about the presentation. Who cares if there's a drop of sauce on their bed of parsley, or if one piece of chicken is touching another? Perhaps when everyone's entries taste the same that's the only criteria judges can differentiate.You don't even have to have ever barbecued to become a judge. Anyone can become a "Certified Barbecue Judge",attend a class at a comp, and you can put CBJ after your name. For now, I'll keep hobby cooking for family and friends, a small catered event, and be satisfied by the smiles on everyones face. End of rant.

[reg]

Expatbill, its funny you mention judging and I know the subject can become heated at times but I noticed a long thread about just that on the Basso forum a while back. Now it appears that some of the BBQ heavy weights have changed their minds about certified judging and are saying that 'foodies' off the street can do just as good a job. After all these years of listening to these guys about CBJ's some have now had a change of heart, i wonder why the change all of a sudden

This is the first time that I have heard that you did compete at one time, did not know that.

reg

[kevinv]

For now, I'll keep hobby cooking for family and friends, a small catered event, and be satisfied by the smiles on everyones face. End of rant.

I agree with you on this point. When I cook at home, the judges are the people that get to eat the treats. I love it when my oldest who is 6 gives a thumbs up for the ribs, chicken or whatever. Makes it all worth it.

I do wish to compete one day, but I do not beleve in this part of looseing based on presentation, or because it does not shine just right or whatever. I also do not like the idea of going to a compation, and there is only 5 teams there. Everyone is against each other but was yours realy the best?

anyway.....

[mikita21]

Barbecuing is the act of cooking meat slowly over wood, charcoal or briquets. Where it goes beyond that is up to the barbecue society. Muffin tins, foil, water and anything else the creative mind can think of seems OK, as long as the basic definition is not violated. We can way overthink the entire concept..............

[reg]

So braising chicken parts in a muffin tin is BBQ as long as its cooked over wood or charcoal ?

Reg

[mikita21]

Interesting question, Reg...........going all the way back to the beginning, I think the whole issue of the muffin tins was for shaping only, not part of the total cooking process. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I think it was for the appearance score. Myron knows how to barbecue, period.

As for judging, and I have said this before, my entire focus is the quality of the meat served to me, and I am working on behalf of the cooks. The whole point of certified judges is to have the cooks' meats judged fairly and honestly by competent people who have been schooled in the standards any particular barbecue organization istrying to attain. If judging is going away from that, it needs to be jerked back to a higher plane.

I agree that all the crap about drops of sauce and red lettuce and all that confounds me. I am judging meat, and there are more and more people challenging the KCBS garnish crap. I keep missing illegal garnish, cause frankly, I don't care. I am judging meat. I am evolving more and more to the MBN format, because it is comparative judging......evaluating just precisely how this excellent cook did a better job today than that other excellent cook. There is no garnish, just meat in a box and it is the meat's appearance we judge. The only issue that needs to arise is whether a box is "marked" in any way.

The other judging issue is that in KCBS,, you are certified as soon as you take the class. the Manitoba event was conducted with 100 per cent certified judges........who had just taken the class and were doing their first barbecue.

In MBN, you are only a trained judge after the class. To become certified, you have to get out and judge in all three categories....rib, shoulder, whole hog, within one year. Only then do you become a Memphis certified judge. It's a higher standard all around.

Don't be so hard on judging......only on some judges...........*G*

[Rob R]

Makita, it really sounds as if you think KCBS judging certification is... what's the right word... Inadequate. I'm not sure I'd agree with that - it's still a 4-5 hour class, where each judge is not only given a thorough description of barbeque, each of the 4 meats, and what to look for in the areas of tenderness, appearance, etc... but is given an opportunity to taste each of these 4 meats in real turn-in boxes. I'm not sure if this is the norm, but Morden judges were given three different boxes for each of the 4 meats.

As a competitor, the only judging situation I think is inadequate is when there aren't enough certified judges and they need to pull people in off the street - there's a huge difference between your average joe, and someone who has invested $50-75 and the time into taking a certification class. Even that scenario is tolerable, remember we do this for fun and it's not like these judges are determining the fate of the world... It's barbecue.

In Morden, Manitoba - the judging class was full but the judging pool still contained a decent number of experienced judges - we had several judges drive up from the US midwest and a nice couple from South Carolina, all of these have judged many events in the past... There was also a good group of judges that were certified in Morden in 2009. So to say they were 100% inexperienced judges is totally false. If you were there and I missed the opportunity to meet you, that's too bad.

[Rob R]

So braising chicken parts in a muffin tin is BBQ as long as its cooked over wood or charcoal ?

Reg

May as well tackle this one too LOL... Sure, why not? As I'm sure you're aware this seems to be a growing trend and it wouldn't be so if the competitors didn't feel like it improved the end result. If any legal technique improves the end result, I don't have any moral issues with it.
It's all part of the eternal quest for that "one perfect bite".

I came into this a bit late but good thread guys, I like to see some discussion... I'm going to go back to page 1 now.

[kevinv]

Judges are not the problem. The method is not the problem. I beleve it is how each judge enforces the method and the rules. That is how any type of judging is. Each person also will deal with what is infront of them how they feel.

Also with judeing each person has the own taste palate, and they have their own likes and dislikes. This is one part which makes it interesting.

I was told in another forum that if I want to realy understand, I should take the course and become a judge. I just dont believe that that, that will change how one cooks, or the taste they are after will change.

just my 2 cents

[reg]

" where each judge is not only given a thorough description of barbeque, each of the 4 meats, and what to look for in the areas of tenderness, appearance, etc... but is given an opportunity to taste each of these 4 meats in real turn-in boxes."

This has always been an area that I have problems with. With this method you are setting the stage for judges to have preconcieved notions of what BBQ should be. I can remember going to events where the one team won at least 60% of the time, and yes that team also provided the meats for the judging class. In KCBS they also have six portions set out on the same sample platter/tray but in the same breath tell you not to compare, well we all know thats impossible. Is that a fair system, I don't think so.

Do we think that most people have no taste or know what is over cooked or under cooked or what looks presentable, these are pretty simple tasks. The sample either tastes great or its OK, its tender or its tough. Yes have judging orientations but keep it limited and let the judge score the food for what it is that day. As Rob said its BBQ, lets not go to over board

Just a couple of thoughts

Reg

[Hippieforever99]

there's a huge difference between your average joe, and someone who has invested $50-75 and the time into taking a certification class.

For the most part I think judges are pretty different, hence the reason the scores go the way they do at times. I think that it is good that they give the judges some basic instructions at comps like Paris does, but I think it should end there. Why do they have to taste different meats in a class, and who is to say that the meats were done right in the first place. You talk about credibility of judges because they have spent 50-75 dollars for a class. To me that means absolutely nothing. Case in point. Look how many people go to and spend a furtune at Ribfests and state that they are the best ribs they have ever eaten. Mass produced meat for a fundraiser is all it is. The only type of person I feel makes a good judge is one that knows some history of BBQ, knows what great BBQ really is suppose to be like to a point, DOES NOT COMPARE ONE ENTRY TO ANOTHER, and most of all has a passion towards food. I think BBQers and judges go hand in hand for the most part, as there would not be comps without each of them. Sure some will argue that all judges should be certified in order to judge. You may be right to a point. I feel that at times though some are just looking to have a pin, membership card, certificate, etc. to hang on their walls and puff out their chests and to say I am certified in all styles of BBQ. All the certificates in the world does not make a great judge, but honesty and a passion for food does I feel. Hippie

[mikita21]

Reg, I think the issue that may concern you here is that judges in KCBS and MBN are taught a standard. KCBS has a standard it wants its cooks to achieve in taste, tenderness, appearance, etc. MBN has a standard it wants it cooks to achieve. But I think both leave the final mark to that great indeterminate: Overall impression, aka Did you like it? I like sweet; the guy next to me likes spicy; the lady across the table is looking for something else. We are all judging (I hope) to the standard the organization wants cooks to achieve to get a score, but each individual's taste buds will tell the final story, and that seems appropriate to me.

I think when judges are given samples in the judging class, it is not to instruct them that all bbq should be like that, cause the class samples are sometimes cold, not done to a truly competitive standard, etc. But they can be tools to help the instructor descibe the standards the organization wants its competitive cooks to apply on game day, standards they will be judged on. And yeah, there is a danger of overthinking Barbecue.

Hippie, I am appalled at your rejection of comparative judging!!! (choking slightly here, motioning for water)
MBN is very specifically about comparative judging: you enter a contest, show up on the appointed day, and cook meat to a standard, applying your own attributes to that meat in wood, injections, rubs, sauces, temperature, time, etc. The judge wants to see if you meet the standards an MBN contest requires, and has to determine if your best effort today was better than the guy next to you. The judge can sample 6 superb products; his or her job is then to determine who, on that particular day, did the best job. Same as the Leafs, Stampeders, Patrick Chan, Man U.......who showed up and did the best job in the competition on that particular day. I think comparative judging makes me work harder.

[reg]

" Reg, I think the issue that may concern you here is that judges in KCBS and MBN are taught a standard. KCBS has a standard it wants its cooks to achieve in taste, tenderness, appearance, etc. MBN has a standard it wants it cooks to achieve"

That is exactly my concerns. I would like to see just the opposite, go crazy, do whatever and let the finished product be judged for what it is. You know yourself if ribs were finished with a superb ice wine sauce for example they would be scored very very low but they allow muffin tins for braising, pellet cookers and all sorts of other computer controlled devices, this makes no sense to me. If you are going to open it up then open up the whole process. Does BBQ have to be exactly what it has been for the past 100 years ?

Again, just opinions

Reg